Oh, there are too many reasons to go into them all here. The one I want to explore today, though, isn’t about health or wellness or tradition. It’s about life. It’s about the undeniable truth that all life comes from death. Many turn to veganism in an attempt to “do no harm.” A lovely, poetic, beautiful idea. Those who embrace it through veganism want their life to be from that which is freely given; they don’t want to know, deep down, that their own place in this world came at the cost of another sacred life.
Yet it does. All life does. Let’s begin by looking at the root of all life — the soil.
Wendell Berry, in his essay “Two Economies” writes:
For, although any soil sample can be reduced to its inert quantities, a handful of the real thing has life in it; it is full of living creatures. And if we try to describe the behavior of that life we will see that it is doing something that, if we are not careful, we will call “unearthly”: It is making life out of death. Not so very long ago, had we known about it what we know now, we would probably have called it “miraculous.” In a time when death is looked upon with almost universal enmity, it is hard to believe that the land we live on and the lives we live are the gifts of death. Yet that is so and it is the topsoil that makes it so.
You see, soil is — first and foremost — alive. It is not just dirt or dust. It is teeming with thousands upon thousands of tiny creatures. Indeed, one tablespoon of soil contains millions of tiny organisms hailing from thousands of different species of animal. And that living soil feeds on death. It takes death and from it feeds the fruits and vegetables in your garden, the grasses that feed your cow, the bugs that feed your laying hens. It takes death and makes life. It is the Resurrection written into the tiniest, yet arguably most essential, detail of our daily existence.
Lierre Keith confronted this when, as a vegetarian, she’d started her own garden. She shares the story in her compassionate and poignant book, The Vegetarian Myth:
“Feed the soil, not the plant,” was the first commandment of organic growing. I had to feed the soil because it was alive.
Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium — NPK — is the Triple Goddess of gardeners, the Troika of elements that rule plant growth. What did soil and plants eat and where would I get those substances? I hadn’t learned the phrase “closed-loop system,” but that was what I was after. Nitrogen was the big one. There are plants that fix nitrogen. Wasn’t that enough for my garden? Couldn’t it be? I begged. But I was begging a million living creatures who had organized themselves into mutual dependence millions of years ago. They had no use for my ethical anguish. No nitrogen-fixing plant could make up for all the nutrients I was taking out. The soil wanted manure. Worse, it wanted the inconceivable: blood and bones.
There were other sources of nitrogen I could have applied. Right now, fossil fuel provides the nitrogen to grow crops the world over. Synthetic fertilizer is what created the green revolution, with its 250 percent increase in crops. Besides the fact that nothing made from fossil fuels is sustainable—we can’t grow fossil fuel and it doesn’t reproduce itself—synthetic fertilizers eventually destroy the soil.
So synthetic nitrogen was out. And that left me facing animal products. Of course, the irony is that either source of nitrogen, synthetic or organic, comes from animals. Oil and gas are what’s left of the dinosaurs. So my choices—our choices, actually—were nitrogen from dead reptiles or from living ruminants.
My garden wanted to eat animals, even if I didn’t.
She then goes on to share how she compromised, using goat manure as her source of nitrogen and justifying it to herself as a way to “not waste” all that manure that was just piled up and not going to be used otherwise. But with phosphorous and potassium, she reached a turning point. These aren’t as easy to come by. Bone meal, blood, and ash are the most sustainable, natural ways to acquire these nutrients for the soil. By then, she’d almost given up hope that her garden, the place where she was supposed to be nurturing life, would be a place of freely-given fruits & vegetables that “did no harm” and cost no life.
Her story continues:
There were finer points, all of them sharp and hungry, that I learned about growing fruit. I didn’t have fruit trees yet, but they were part of the mythic farm that waited in my mist-shrouded future. Calcium is always a limiting factor in the soil. When the calcium is gone, growth stops. And again, the calcium would come from … Would I finish the sentence with an organic box from the feed store, laden with embodied energy and slaughterhouse dust? Or would I learn the grammar of my great-grandparents, and feed the trees with the bones of animals that lived beside me? Would there be any solace in this information? I found one small comfort in The Apple Grower by Michael Phillips. He quotes a book called The Apple Culturist from 1871, recounting the story of an apple tree near the graves of Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, and his wife Mary Sayles. The roots of the tree were found to have grown into the graves and assumed the shape of human skeletons while “the graves [were] emptied of every particle of human dust. Not a trace of anything was left.”
This story eased my mind, because the tree ate the humans. < snip...>
But I couldn’t listen to that apple tree, speaking in slow, slow sign with its skeleton roots, saying: you are the exact shape of my hunger. Our animal bones, our human blood; we belong here too, if we’re willing to accept our place. We are eaten as well as eaters, raw materials for the endless feast. That would have been the solace: a place at the table. We aren’t above, just one among many beings embraced by carbon that one day will let go.
But I had to accept death before I could take my place.
Have you accepted death?
I have. Monastics the world over teach simple truths. Embrace death. Don’t be a martyr; don’t seek it out. But do know that your death is inevitable and you are like the grasses growing in the fields, flowering and fading. Here today. Gone tomorrow.
And yet your death is not the end, it is merely part in a never-ending cycle. Your blood. Your ashes. Your bones. These feed the soil, too.
And so I think on these things when I garden.
Yes there’s the sun, the quiet time, the discoveries, the fruit of my labor. But there’s also this — this reminder that we are all part of a circle of death and life. We can not escape death. It is part of every bite of food we eat, whether we are vegans or not.
I owe this meditation, in part, to Seeds of Change, the wonderful organic seed company that freely gave me 25 packets of seeds to give me a jump start on gardening this year. Turns out, they also gave me a jump start in metaphysics and the philosophy of food, too.
Are you eager to have your own metaphysical thoughts about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?
You could do as I’ve done and start a garden. It’s never too late. I’ve even got listings on my Resources page for gardening supplies, seeds, and more to help make your transition easier.
A final thought. I wrote this post while participating in the Sowing Millions Project by Real Food Media on behalf of Seeds of Change. But, I didn’t write it to sell seeds. I wrote it to nourish your soul as well as your body. So many of my posts are news stories highlighting negative things: government overreach of power, food scientists playing God or Mother Nature, and the like. While it’s fun to stay abreast of the latest in food news and important to know when and how to take action to preserve traditional food ways, it’s also equally as fun to wax philosophical and think deeply on why nourishing food is so important.
As per my standard disclosures, you can bet that I received product and other goodies to facilitate this post (read: FREE SEEDS!). My thoughts and opinions are my own and not of those of Real Food Media or Seeds of Change.
(photos by, in order from top to bottom: timpeartrice, JerseyRed, HeyThereSpaceman, & Tambako)
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What a beautiful post.
Thank you!
This was so beautifully and honestly written, thank you. I think by now the whole food blogging world knows why I’m not a vegan. It was a heartbreaking decision but one that I had to make to save my health. After only a few months of eating meat I was well again, clear evidence in my mind that there are people who just cannot thrive on a vegan diet.
Unfortunately, people did not accept my decision and I was barraged with death threats against me and my family, several of my online accounts were hacked, and people ran background checks on me and my family and my web host to try to prove that I was being paid by the meat industry to denounce veganism. It has been more than 6 months since my announcement and I am harassed and attacked on a weekly basis. But, those emails are outweighed by the hundreds I receive from people just like me, who tried and tried but could not sustain health on a vegan diet.
Life really does rely on death, whether you are an omnivore or a vegan. We have to accept that, do what is best for ourselves, the planet, and ultimately the animals.
Thank you for this!
You’re welcome. I remember when you “came out” and the maelstrom of mean-spirited remarks sent your way. What a shame!
Tasha, I remember your post, and am so disheartened to hear you’re still having to deal with people harassing you for this.
Let me get this straight-people that won’t eat any animal product because they don’t want to harm or use the animal are “OK” with issuing death threats against another human being because she decided animal products were necesarry for her health?? I know the world is crazy, but we’ve got to get priorities straight, where human life is the most valuable. Not that we should ever abuse an animal, but people are always more important!
Ditto.
For sure…I am a Primal eater and love it and I respect Human life above all else.
Really sorry to hear the virulent reaction you got, but it reinforces my belief that at least some vegans are fanatics. It’s a bit like the reaction you’d get if you were a former homosexual gone straight!
Regards Dennis
Very enlightening post. I hope vegans and vegetarians who are unsure about their lifestyle take a hard look at this. I hope they will consider to start making changes and realize the truth.
I read an article a bit ago that said 75% of vegetarians start eating meat within an average of 9 years. Most do it for health reasons.
One can not thrive without animal product. We never have and never will. It’s a fact that Vitamin B12 is an essential nutrient. It is also a fact that animals are the only source.
Kind of like how plants eat the death of animal products in order to thrive and become abundant in nutrition.
Well, this is only one argument of many which supports why I’m happily an omnivore. Health and the need for at least SOME animal foods gets you into a whole other ballpark of material to work with. And really, this post isn’t about igniting a flame war. It’s about my musings when I contemplate the soil and how we feed it so it will feed us.
Interesting take you have here Kristen. I can see and appreciate your perspective but think several would have a differing opinion about the ethics behind their decision. Thanks for sharing.
Vitamin B12 exists in soil, our bodies actually make vitamin B12 although scientist are not sure if we can use it. There are plenty of vitamin b12 supplements out there that are vegan. When it comes to other vitamins and minerals, vegan food has a much higher concentration then animal products or vegan foods contain those nutrients in forms that our body is better able to digest. Plenty of primate species are strictly herbivores, there is no reason to believe that our diet is lacking if we don’t consume animal products.
But the fact still is that vegans need to supplement – and many who don’t are severely B-vitamin deficient. And children that don’t get enough B12, vitamin D, and amino acids (all found in animal fats and proteins), do not develop proper immune systems and growth patterns. In areas where I work in the developing world, it would be completely unrealistic to tell families who live in sub-saharan africa who survive on meat, milk, eggs, and sorghum, that they should be vegetarians and take supplements every day.
Primates ARE herbivores, and so are ruminants (cows). But man is not a primate, nor do we have the digestive system of a ruminant. And the reason human beings are not primates is because we have larger brains and stand upright. These evolutionary changes happened 2 billions years ago when apelike australopithecines began to eat meat and evolved into bigger brained, larger jawed habilines. And when they discovered fire and were able to cook meat which released the amino acids, they evolved into homo erectus. That is who we are today, and that is how are bodies were designed.
That is bang-on Stephanie. I always try to explain this to people in the vegan-meat eating debate. If they really think veganism is the “truth and the life” then they should do some thinking as to where we would be as a species without animal products!
Should also point out that the majority of those “veggie meat” products are made from soy, and 92% of the soy in the U.S. is GMO. I’ve completely given up soy. I think it’s more important to eat real food (meat) than food modified in a laboratory. Completely non-GMO chicken is hard to come by, but wild fish/shellfish, grass-fed beef, those are fantastic.
A few points of note: I’m not entirely certain that Australopithecines ‘evolved into’ Homo habilis, but there’s evidence that they shared a common ancestor, according to the Smithsonian Institution:
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/human-family-tree
I was taught that A. afarensis and A. africanus were vegetarian. Additionally, A. afarensis‘s history goes back 3-2 million years, not 2 billion. You’re looking back to when eukaryotic organisms were just starting to flourish.
If memory serves, the most recent common ancestor between man and chimpanzee was approx. 7 mya.
Also, while I’m thinking about it, don’t forget that P. boisei had a monstrous jaw, and is suspected to be mostly a vegetarian species.
(Just a note from a Bio student that studied this pretty intensely last quarter.
Otherwise, I have no disagreement with you.)
And just to simplify that (and clarify the earlier statement) we ARE part of the Primate order in case anyone is confused by stephanie’s post.
Yes, technically man IS a primate. And, not all primates are herbivores. Chimpanzees, for example, are omnivores, and may consume up to one ton of meat annually. http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html
Yeah, you are correct we are genetically designed to eat meat, fruits, vegetables, herbs etc and actually we are not well designed to eat grains. Grains actually are BAD for you health.
While primates do indeed eat a lot of plant matter, they are absolutely not vegetarian. They hunt and kill, and they eat insects and other small creatures.
Wait, Toad… some of us do okay without meat. And for years. Now, I am NOT a vegan. I am lacto-ovo vegetarian. In other words I eat dairy and eggs.
And have been this way for 23 years.
I’m quite healthy – and honestly, for MY body, this was the right choice.
But that’s me. I don’t disparage those who choose to eat meat. I don’t disparage those who go completely Vegan.
My body doesn’t like meat – it makes me really sick. My mouth likes it just fine… but it’s not worth the, ummm, “end” result. I get really ill for several weeks.
I use leather, feed my pets meat – their bodies need it – and “consume” animal products in other ways.
My original choice to go meatless had to do with the pollution and misuse of resources I saw with raising animals for meat. The higher up the food chain you eat, the more energy was used to “make” your meal. I just wanted to be a bit gentler on the earth in THAT way and not take up more resources than necessary to fuel MY body.
Simple.
But it’s my choice for me.
My husband eats meat. My daughter eats meat. And I prepare it for them…
This is simply my choice for me, and it happens to work for my body.
Listen Toad, I think part of the point of this post is that blanket, one size fits all statements DO NOT indeed fit everyone.
Saying that one cannot thrive without animal products is asinine. Some can, some cannot. I’m a gluten free vegan marathon runner. I’m not broken, not B12 deficient, don’t kill animals for food or fertilizer, and I’ve happily eschewed animal products in my diet for 23 years.
Try not to be an ass, you won’t get flamed as often.
I wrote an in depth comment and lost it because I forgot to put in my name. I wrote and asked if you were a wise vegan or did you indulge in too much pasta, meat analogues, soy ice cream, etc. – missing out on green and orange veggies and fruits.
When I became an ethical vegetarian in the 80′s I thought- wow I can eat all the cheese, ice cream, pasta and cookies I want. Wrong! Those were all poor choices which should have been small adjuncts to a healthy vegetarian lifestyle. Now as an ethical vegan, I eat an assortment of veggies and fruits though sometimes I buy meat analogues and soy cheese. But my emphasis is now on whole foods.
At 80 I can lift up a 25-pound bag of bird seed or cat litter. I can paint my porch steps as I did yesterday. I take care of a dog, 7 cats, and a bunny. How many meat-eating 80 years old you know can do this? But most of all, I am grateful that no suffering food animal makes its way to my dinner plate. Thank you God for all the blessings I have received from my compassionate lifestyle. If you ordained seed and grains for us originally in the Garden of Eden – then certainly this was a healthy lifestyle for man.
Suzana — I have never been a vegan or a vegetarian. The closest I get to it is through the religious fasting I sometimes do as a part of my Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Yet even in our strictest of fasts, we are not entirely vegan. We still eat seafood that doesn’t have a backbone — so clams, oysters, scallops, shrimp, lobster, crab, etc. are all eaten.
Perhaps you meant to question Lierre Kieth? One of the authors I quoted in the post?
Kristen, I am a Byzantine Catholic. Sadly, we don’t observe Meat fare and Cheese Fare as you do as well as the Greek Orthodox I believe and for that you are to be congratulated. Of course, as a vegan, I observe Meat Fare and Cheese Fare -day in an day out – so it is not penetential for me. It is a great privilege and a joy. I also attend the Latin Church each morning for liturgy. I am so saddened by the lack of compassionate teaching for animals from the Catholic hierarchy and I even wrote 360 bishops in this regard in 2001. Fourteen responded. I don’t look to the church for compassionate teaching. I look to St. Francis and to my heart for it. There are all kinds of excuses why we should eat meat. Thank God, I don’t buy any of them and there are lovely people like Angel Finn who recently wrote why we should be vegan on Care2.
You probably can find her on the internet if interested. She and another at this site gave this old lady a green star for my comment. I laughed because as a former teacher way back when – the kids always loved a star for their papers- any color at all! When it comes to compassion, this lifestyle can’t be beat. If you told me as did my family in the 80′s that I would be jeopardizing my health – it wouldn’t have changed a thing. There are certain virtues that I treasure above all others and among them -near the very tippy top is compassion.
The vegan claim of compassion falls to the ground with a thud when one reads the countless stories like the one above, where a horde of virulent, sanctimonious vegans attacked, harassed and even threated DEATH to someone who had the unmitigated gall to criticize veganism.
Beautifully written, Kristen. Leirre Keith’s book is one of my favorite of all time, and I recommend it to everyone I meet. It covers every aspect of why vegetarianism is wrong for almost everyone and for Mother Earth. I have yet to meet a vegan who would actually read it, however.
I have met a vegan who read it, hated it, disagreed with her and learned nothing from it. It baffles me how he could learn nothing from it. I am not a vegetarian but read it and thought it was a marvelous book. I think maybe he was turned off by her politics, which are kind of radical.
The compassion argument also falls when looking at the big picture. Veganism is not a sustainable choice and is not reasonable for growing children, pregnant women, or nursing mothers. Compassion has in to include this Earth and the humans living on it — not just the animals. Besides, there are compassionate ways to keep and kill animals. We’re not in Eden anymore Dorothy.
Suzana, I’m glad veganism has worked for you, but I wouldn’t be so quick to assume your food choices have made you healthier. My 92 year old grandma can do the same things and eats plenty of meat.
As did my grandparents, who lived healthily long into their 80′s and 90′s, and ate animal protein and fats every day of their lives.
As did my grandparents who lived well into their 90s. In fact, I have met few people over 80 across the world (especially in the developing world) that didn’t eat meat. Suzana, you sound like a very healthy person and probably had good nutrition throughout your life that allowed you to develop a good constitution and strong immune system. That may have not been so had you been raised vegetarian. I work with communities of people whose children die every day from lack of animal sourced protein. The ones who live are severely stunted and have developmental problems. The suggestion that children should be raised vegetarian or vegan is untested and has no scientific basis (there has never been a purely vegan civilization or culture to observe). At this point, it is still entirely ideological.
Wait…. people still think that we NEED animal protein to survive?? I can’t believe that with all of the science available, this myth still exists. A protein deficiency is only seen in overall malnutrition, it is not seen in vegetarians or vegans.
Brilliant observation of the “blood-less diet” and how even the soil wants animal foods. Totally brilliant.
Ultimately, for me, it has always boiled down to the fact that veganism is not sustainable. If one cannot acquire all the nutrients one needs while following a certain diet using only naturally existing sources(i.e. vegans and B12) it is unrealistic and unsustainable. If you need big pharma to provide you with ESSENTIAL nutrients, you’re a slave.
I was at the health food store and I saw on the cover of a magazine that the famous vegan Alcia Silverstone just had a baby. I hope she ate better during pregnancy and plans to eat better or at a minimum supplement if she breastfeeds. I didn’t read it, but might Google her and see.
I love the way Lierre Keith puts things. She’s a true wordsmith. She can make a point I’ve heard many, many times before (like about how the soil wants animal foods, too), but when she says it I take notice.
I read that Alicia Silverstone credits her vegan diet with a healthy and easy pregnancy, and plans to breastfeed exclusively and then on weaning, raise the baby entirely vegan. It will be interesting to see how this child turns out. I wouldn’t personally risk it, knowing what I know about our nutritional needs.
I loved Lierre Keith’s book, too. I reviewed it for Wise Traditions, the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation. The review is here if it interests anyone:
http://www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-up-book-reviews/1669-vegetarian-myth
WELL said Melissa, that’s brilliant in it’s simplicity. I want to eat my vitamins, not be a slave to pills just to meet my daily requirements for healthy survival.
Excellant
*Excellent.. really, I can spell
Wonderful essay – I shared it via The Nourished Life and then “liked” your site.
Brilliant post. It is often hard for people to accept, when I give diet and nutrition talks, that you cannot be “organic” and “vegan.” The two things are literally mutually exclusive.
IMHO, there is no such thing as “ethical veganism,” because it’s all a matter of where the death happens and how close it is to home, not if the death happens. Unless you live completely off the grid as a hermit, there’s no way to avoid causing harm to animals. Some of it is just easier to ignore. Crops grown in monoculture, which is what almost all vegans rely on, kill many animals both directly and indirectly–there is simply no way to avoid it. Those pesticides? Yeah, those are tested on animals. That petroleum fertilizer? Also tested on animals, and the runoff kills wildlife in and near our watersheds. Shipping does the same thing, but it’s just not as in-your-face as a slaughterhouse. It’s also important for people to understand that an environment that could keep everyone vegan using monoculture and large scale farms harms the environment hugely, which also ultimately harms animals as much as humans. Our energy sources also harm animals: wind power kills birds, oil spills decimate aquatic life, and natural gas fracking does all kinds of horrible things. Building a homes and businesses displaces the animals that lived there, often causing death.
For me, and this is a hugely unpopular viewpoint, veganism if often just deciding to what it’s okay to turn a blind eye.
I couldn’t agree more Shawn. I don’t even know if it’s so much as turning a blind eye, as it is people covering their ears, closing their eyes & singing “la la la la la” really loud so they don’t hear the thousands of nesting & migrating waterfowl that get slaughtered every time an organic rice field is harvested… or the highly inhumane, gruesome way wildlife is “kept out” of those fields of organic greens & lettuces. How many baby Black Swallowtail Butterflies are carelessly murdered when a grower is harvesting a field of dill, parsley, carrots, celery, etc?
Me? I’m a strict omnivore who has a mad penchant for pork, rare beef, and tomatoes:))
I’m with you & Kristen on this.
Great article!-S
I am an ex-vegan. This a new point of view I hadn’t even thought of! Thank you for sharing. Balance is everything. And it’s important to me to live the way God intended us to. He apparently knew what he was doing.
As a Christian and a vegan, I have to doubt that God intended death in the world- of humans or of animals, who obviously share in a sort of life that plants do not. In Eden, there was no death. Why would God want us to slaughter now?
since you are a Christian you must know that it was God who instituted death as the punishment for Adam’s sin. Adam chose death when he disobeyed God. God told Noah to start eating meat after the flood. Christ came as a substitution to die for us so that we don’t have to have the punishment of death but can have everlasting life with him. So this world is not our home…and it is not Eden. Our eternity with God is.
Well done….I’d love to know your other reasons though as well!
Thank you for such an informative article! Would it work to grind up soft bones after making broth from them to put in the garden?
I dry all my bones from soup/broth, and then use a tamper on concrete patio to pulverize them. Right into the compost they go after that! They also make for really good fires, dry bones burn clean and long, and the ashes make great soil amendments too!
Oooh, so glad I found you! Great stuff here for the gluten intolerant too, THANKS!
Dunno about her, but my decision that I would never be vegan again (I was very briefly in 2005, with disastrous results) came when I realized I’m a poor converter of beta carotene. My daughter and I both suffered problems related to insufficient vitamin A, and now I’m pretty much militant against the preaching of veganism as a superior diet.
Incidentally I’ve since learned that we’re poor converters of *all* the plant-based fat-soluble vitamin precursors. D2, K1, as well as the carotenes. How well we convert is an individual thing, but on the whole, our bodies like the preformed versions a LOT better.
Dana, I’d say that more than half the population is in the same boat as you. In the very least, all children and the elderly are. Add to that those average-aged adults who have a poor time converting the plant-based fat-soluble vitamin precursors (roughly 30%, according to most estimates), and suddenly you’ve got a HUGE amount of people who really can NOT be vegan without facing dramatic nutritional deficiencies. So, in the very least, when it comes to arguing about veganism from a nutritional standpoint, vegans should acknowledge that veganism can not suit everyone (or even most people, for most of their lives).
oh and, excellent post! It occurred to me a long time ago that if nothing ever died, we would not have soil at all!
I think most vegans know that it’s impossible to live your life without doing any harm to other living beings, but it’s still important we try our best to minimize it. Knowing that your life cannot be one of perfect compassion does not mean you can throw your hands in the air and just not care any more. The soil may need nitrogen, but that should not be received as license to eat the tortured flesh of animals raised in factory farming or to feel any better about destroying the planet by supporting animal agriculture.
Rest assured, I feel no such license. I advocate sustainable, natural, humane animal husbandry that actually benefits the environment more than it detracts from it While simultaneously nurturing human health and fertility. So, in this regard at least, it seems we agree.
I feel like this article would like to assert that killing animals, either to eat them or to add their parts to the soil, is more ethical than not killing animals but I don’t see the reasoning.
Read “The Vegetarian Myth,” and you will gain an answer to your question.
“Rest assured, I feel no such license. I advocate sustainable, natural, humane animal husbandry that actually benefits the environment more than it detracts from it While simultaneously nurturing human health and fertility. So, in this regard at least, it seems we agree.”
This, entirely.
Me three.
incredibly beautiful.
perfectly encapsulates what I’ve been droning on and on about and never quite distilling down to such a perfect statement. Thank you.
This article presents a beautiful sentiment: that beings die in a peaceful way, giving back to the soil and earth so life can spring forth. I can understand the author’s point. Unfortunately it does not match up with the reality of how the meat in our country is produced.
I choose not to eat meat because the way animals are raised in this country is not sustainable for our planet, nor it is healthy for our bodies. Not to mention, the treatment of this animals before they are slaughtered is cruel and very far from honoring the gifts they give to the earth.
Everyone must eat in a way that honors their values and nourishes their body. Everyone is unique. But we cannot pretend the animals are raised in a natural, humane way, on an some sort of idyllic farm. This is not the reality.
Here’s a recent article from CNN that sums up a few important facts about raising animals for meat and eggs:
http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2011/07/08/55-how-animals-are-raised-for-food/
In addition, here’s a great film that lays out the connection between meat and dairy consumption to the development of most degenerative diseases: http://www.forksoverknives.com/
I don’t want to try to disagree with anyone’s values. I just want to share some knowledge I have gained that has shifted the way I view things. Maybe it will resonate with someone else or maybe not…
Well, you won’t hear any praise of factory farming or the rest of industrialized food production ever coming from me, or on this site. So, your point, while good, isn’t particularly relevant. There are other choices on the spectrum between veganism and industrial food, choices that are good for the environment, human health, AND animal welfare.
Also, it’s worth repeating that industrialized agriculture for plant foods is pretty awful, too–the amount of chemicals washing down from our pesticides and herbicides kills entire ecosystems of animals. GMO corn and soy, which is most of what is grown in the US, is also being linked to all kinds of interesting things like BT toxins found in babies (http://www.gmwatch.org/component/content/article/13174). True veganism specifically says no manure, and something has to feed the soil, so what is used are largely petroleum-based fertilizers. The list of bad farming practices goes on and on for factory farming of vegetables. There’s also a lot of very good science that says animal fats are actually very good for you (at least as much science as says it’s bad), but that many of the antibiotics and other chemicals used dairy and meat are bad (just as many pesticides and herbicides used in factory farming are). Produce farm workers, often illegal immigrants with no rights, are often treated no better than the animals on factory farms, and many die each year from heat stroke and toxins (there’s a union that is trying to form to get fair treatment, btw).
The point isn’t that plant-based foods are bad, obviously, but that factory farming is a problem overall, whether it be animal or vegetable, and there’s a middle ground of good land stewardship, sustainable farming without such harmful chemicals, and humane treatment. Different lifestyles work for different people, and we all have our own moral imperatives. But, there’s a middle ground for vegans, paleos, and omnivores: stop attacking each other, and start working together to reform our food system from factory farming to something more sustainable and humane all around, for both animals and people.
Nicely said!
It’s also worth mentioning that the majority of GMO corn and soy are fed to factory farmed livestock and not to people.
I can see that the site promotes avoiding factory-farmed raised meats, but even the terms “free-range” and “humane” meat are very questionable and subjective. Granted, even if I knew exactly where my meat came from and how the animal was raised I probably would still not eat it. It does not sit right with me. I realize that that is not the case for everyone.
My fear is that people will use argument that it is “nature’s way” that animals die for our food without further investigating where and how the animals where raised/treated.
But I see your point that you support people educating themselves about their food.
People use all kinds of poor excuses for bad lifestyles, from smoking to spousal abuse to approving GMO foods despite hard evidence of environmental, animal, and human damage. The most we, who are educated and keep up with research, can do is to put the information out there in a way that can be understood, and to encourage more people to actually look at the choices they make. Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons I love FoodRenegade!
Agreed. Oh, and there are 2 Rachel’s apparently, so… the above is not me.
Kristen,
I must echo the words of those folks who’ve said ‘brilliant’ and also thank you for your article. You delve into things that everyone should think about regarding the basis of their lives – food.
I thought about very similar topics when some vegetarian friends decided to take issue with my long-standing practice of deer hunting (my main source of animal protien). I came to the conclusion that life is predicated on consuming other things that are, or were, alive; hunting means I must take personal responsibility for at least some of the life which I take to sustain me.
Growing one’s own veggies does a bit of that too. Kudos to you, Seeds of Change, Seed Savers Exchange, farmers and gardeners everywhere for taking on some of that responsibility for themselves (and others), and having fun doing it!
Thank you again for your superb article.
With very best regards,
Don
excellent post – excellent – Will be sharing!
Excellent post. I think being vegan and vegetarian are excellent diet choices, as long as you openly look at and accept their ethical limitations — neither make you “pure.” They may, if done right, reduce some of your culpability in suffering and waste, but nothing, short of suicide, can remove the fact that your existence is dependent on death and, in many ways, the suffering of others. This is the buddhist law of karma and dukkha, and (as a lapsed catholic), what I think is meant by “original sin” — we can never be perfect, and merely by living, we bear some guilt. Accepting that, while seeking to mitigate it, is what ethical living (and eating) is about, not reaching some state of moral purity.
I love your statement in your comment above: “There are other choices on the spectrum between veganism and industrial food, choices that are good for the environment, human health, AND animal welfare.” Much of my problem with fellow vegetarians (I largely count myself in that camp) and vegans is this bright-line belief that one MUST be fully one or the other. Few people ONLY buy local or ONLY buy sustainable, yet are allowed to count themselves “locavores” or promoting sustainable business, but if one is not ONLY a vegan, other vegans think you are an evil apostate — a 95% vegetarian doesn’t count, for some reason.
For 7 years, I was a strict vegetarian, but for many of the reasons you outlined, as well as out of a desire to experience culturally important regional food, I stopped being “strict.” I’m still 90% vegetarian, and largely vegan at that, but no longer see it as a dichotomy, a choice of “either/or.”
Excellent, thought provoking post. Thanks.
Cool. I’m currently working through what it means to kill. I recently participated in the slaughter of the chickens that are now stocking my freezer. I did so because I wanted to process, up close, how this experience affected me, what questions it raised in my heart and mind, and what revelations it might lead me to. It’s an ongoing search; I haven’t made conclusions yet. I appreciate your post as a helpful influence on my thoughts.
I enjoyed the article, and I am a vegetarian and have been so for over 10 years. What stops me from eating meat is how distant I had to be from the killing process in order to be able to stomach consuming animals. I don’t have the constitution to kill an animal and therefore don’t believe I have the right to eat its flesh.
I admire people like Elizabeth and Don (who left comments on your article) who are able to confront the realities of killing animals for food and if I ever decided to eat meat again, I think I would have to do the same.
I don’t believe in trying to “convert” people to be a vegetarian. I know it’s a personal choice and not everyone feels the way that I do about the ethics of eating meat and the need to justify its consumption. I don’t think anyone needs to explain their diet choice, but I’m glad you did.
+1
“I don’t have the constitution to kill an animal and therefore don’t believe I have the right to eat its flesh.”
As I like to say, If you cant kill it, you shouldnt eat it.
And may I ask how meat-eaters feel about cannibalism? This also is a sad fact of nature (and was performed by some of our ancestors) …do you practice this as well?
And after all humans are animals too, are we not?
Awsome!! Puts so many of my thoughts into words. The cycle of nature is to be revered. I told my family that,when it is my “time” I wish to be creamated and scattered back into my beloved nature.
This is a BEAUTIFUL post! I caught my breath so many times while reading it. I love how there is LIFE even in death. What a beautiful dance God has orchestrated.
I’ve been trying to figure out a way to write a post with this kind of title for months. You’ve done a beautiful job on this one. I need to get back to Lierre’s book because it was amazing to read. It’s like seeing my half-complete thoughts taken to their full conclusion.
Great assessment Kristen! I will share this with a few people I know.
Your post is very poetic and I wish more people would consider the implications of their decisions in the philosophical light that you embrace here. Your primary point seems to be that vegans can’t accept death. I am sure that varies with the individual, but I feel the need to point out that minimizing death and suffering is an act, not a state of mind, and it is a virtuous act. The opposite of that is not denial, which is a state of mind, but violence. Violence is what you are doing when you kill an animal. Violence is what you are doing when you pay someone else to kill an animal for you. I understand that putting the word ‘humane’ in front of slaughter might make you feel like you have accepted a deep truth, but the truth for the animal that you have killed is quite different, and any ‘truth’ that varies so greatly from one being to another is just a point of view.
Accepting death is a state of mind that helps you come to terms with something that is permanent, because it is in the past. That is all well and good. Accepting that you are a violent person, and that you will continue to support violence in the future, tacitly or with weapons blazing, that is another issue entirely. Life is hard, and it is much more difficult to accept that you are complicit in suffering here on Earth than it is to say “it is what it is.” We all participate in violence to some degree. That is an inevitable element of the human condition; but your choice to participate in an act of violence is not inevitable, it is entirely up to you. I hope you find the strength to accept responsibility for the suffering that you participate in, and then perhaps you will find a motivation to reduce that suffering.
I would love to read a post written here in the same style some time from now that demonstrates the strength of character that we so seldom see in public but always admire when we do witness it: the strength to accept responsibility for our participation in a flawed system, turn our ship around, and actively make the world a little less violent.
I guess I differ from you in that I do no see violence as inherently bad or evil. It is neither bad nor good. Violent storms can be both beautiful and frightening. And, from a religious perspective, I believe that God often transforms violence so that even if harm is intended by the perpetrator of the violence (as with Christ’s crucifixion on the cross, or Joseph’s being sold by his brothers), God can intend that violence for good, for redemption. I do not have a problem accepting my violent acts if I can see the redemption in them (such as food and health and a spiritual feast for my family) and receive their outcome with gratitude.
What she said.
That is an interesting response. I appreciate that you receive the outcome with gratitude.
Of course, we mean something different when we speak of the violence of a storm, because there is no volition behind it. [Zeus retired long ago.]
I will just point out that you have again shirked responsibility for the violence that you perpetrate, killing an animal or paying someone else to kill it, by passing it off to something like your god’s will or master plan. This is a perfectly valid morality, if that is what you believe. White people used the same rationality to perpetrate violence against black people in this country for centuries. Men used the same rationality to perpetrate violence against women for most of recorded history, and still do in many places around the world. It is perfectly consistent with that line of thinking to kill with gratitude, as you stated, and perhaps that long tradition in American thinking, of accepting death and embracing violence, should be respected.
Personally, I hope that you find a new morality. One that takes responsibility for your decisions to perpetrate violence or not, and one that leaves the world a little less violent as a result. That is the path, and the only path, to Peace.
I do not pretend to know what God’s will is or isn’t — only that he always wills for the Best and is in the business of redemption. Doing this does not shirk my responsibility for my actions. For just as much as I believe in a good and all-powerful God, I also believe in human sin. What you’re describing is essentially the Problem of Evil (i.e., How can a Good God let Bad Things happen? He is either not so powerful or not so good.) And while I have an answer for that which suits me just fine, I think I’ll refrain because we’re getting slightly off topic here. I don’t ever intend for my blog to be a vehicle of religious debate or prostelization.
I only brought God into the equation to try to give an example of how not all violence (even volitional violence) is bad. Since you do not embrace the same God, apparently, it seems that was not a sufficient example for you. But there are other such examples in the natural world — like any predatory mother feeding its young by killing prey.
“— like any predatory mother feeding its young by killing prey.”
Perhaps CR thinks those animals should stop eating meat too?
“A predatory mother feeding its young…” — this equates the morality of humans to that of animal instinct. It is an interesting comparison, but it goes against every consideration of ‘morality’ that I can think of.
My point [and the point of the Christian bible as well, but that is off-subject, as you say] is that humans can *choose* to be better people by eschewing violence. *Choice* requires accepting responsibility for repercussions of one’s actions, which other animals cannot do. It is one of the very, very few things that separates ‘us’ from ‘them’.
It isn’t a question of veganism whether or not the soil is “omnivorous.” Anyone can accept death. The question of veganism is whether or not you, as a thinking, moralizing animal, *chooses* to add to the violence in the world by killing or paying someone else to kill for you.
It seems to me that you have not come to terms with the fact that the violence that you participate in is entirely optional. Other posts on this page seem to think that there is a ‘B12 issue’ that makes veganism unnatural. Vegans throughout history (and there have been billions) use to get B12 from microbes in dirt. Clean food is the only reason vegans supplement B12 today. Vegan supplemented B12 comes from algae, btw, not an animal source.
According to the largest epidemiology study on food ever conducted, vegans live about a decade longer on average than omnivores, and are much more active in later years. Vegan athletes in every sport have shown that their diet improves performance and shortens recovery time. Bill Clinton is on a veg diet to cure his heart disease. Mike Tyson maintains his performance as a vegan. If those two aren’t on opposite ends of the scale, I don’t know what other evidence I could possibly provide that shows how universally healthy a balanced vegan diet can be. If it isn’t natural, then I have to ask: why do so many smart, physically fit people feel so good on a vegan diet and thrive on it?
I am sorry to read that some people commenting here tried a vegan diet and felt their health deteriorate. I am very sorry to hear that, but the only conclusion we can come to is that you were doing it wrong. Sorry to be so glib, but vegan diets do require balance. If you try to be vegan but don’t like vegetables or don’t eat fruit, or don’t eat legumes, etc — or if, like most Americans, you eat highly processed food — then you are going to miss out on important nutrients. [Please note that a vegan diet is not equivalent to an all-fruit or raw diet.] Even still, studies show that poorly balanced vegan diets leave people deficient in 4 vitamins, whereas the typical American omnivore is deficient in 11. Balancing a vegan diet is not difficult, it just requires a subtle change in habits if you are coming from the American omnivore diet. As the single most effective weapon against the top four killers in this country, it is difficult to see how an ‘unnatural’ diet could be so healthy for us.
Perhaps, Kristen, you are under the misconception [shared by other comments on this page] that veganism is unhealthy, or difficult, and that it is therefore unnatural. And because it is unnatural in your mind, you feel no responsibility to consider the how the effects of that unnatural act might play out in the world. Could this be the underlying issue that you have with veganism?
Sigh. Here we go again. The old, tired vegan defense of “if the diet doesn’t work for you, you must be doing it wrong…”
This young woman isn’t going to snap out of this particular delusion until the vegan diet introduces a slew of health problems in her own life and then she is forced to return to eating meat. At that point, she will be treated to her own round of “but you were simply doing the diet wrong!” comments from arrogant vegan acquaintances and she will, finally, come to see the idiocy of this argument.
Only personal experience will convince someone with her mind this deeply closed of the truth.
“According to the largest epidemiology study on food ever conducted, vegans live about a decade longer on average than omnivores, and are much more active in later years.”
Casey, quoting vegan propaganda (in this case, The China Study) doesn’t prove anything. You are retrieving your information from biased arguments within your own community.
Oh yes, I was just going to ask Casey to please cite your sources for these claims:
“Vegans throughout history (and there have been billions) use to get B12 from microbes in dirt. Clean food is the only reason vegans supplement B12 today. Vegan supplemented B12 comes from algae, btw, not an animal source.
According to the largest epidemiology study on food ever conducted, vegans live about a decade longer on average than omnivores, and are much more active in later years.”
And please not that Bill Clinton has had two new blockages and 2 stents implanted recently as a result of his progressing heart disease.
Heather and Stephanie,
First of all, Casey is not always a woman’s name. (^_^)
More to the point, I have been a vegan for well over a decade, and I am an athlete. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I hope to clear up this ignorant notion that a vegan diet is unhealthy, and you kind of set yourself up with the condescending ad-hominem post above. So I will respond in kind: I can run faster than you, further than you, and am stronger than you. My bones are stronger than yours, my circulation is better than yours, and my muscles recover faster than yours. How is that for personal experience?
You’ll note that something less than 0.5% of the USA population is vegan, and yet several times that number of athletes –professional, non-professional, and amateur– are vegan. You don’t have to believe me. You can rely on your own experience. Anyone who regularly attends marathons or triathlons (as I do) sees an over-representation of vegans. How do you explain that these people, the healthiest among us, are vegan like me? Many for well over a decade, like me?
The China Study is peer-reviewed science, conducted at Columbia University. Science doesn’t get much more prestigious than that. I have no intention of performing a personal research project here in a comment section of a blog post for you anyway, but clearly it wouldn’t matter what evidence I put in front of you, because your mind is closed to evidence and proof. Clearly you know better than professionals like “Olympian of the Century” Carl Lewis. Clearly you are also a scientist, and you know better than the American Medical Association, which recommends a vegan diet to battle chronic American disease –you know better than the World Health Organization, which recommends a vegan diet to reduce worldwide mortality rates, chronic diseases, and nutrition deficiencies –you know better than the American Diabetes Association, which recommends a vegan diet as the only known method to possibly *reverse* type 2 diabetes.
I don’t have to look any further than current headlines to find evidence of my assertion. Right now the American, David Zabriskie, is riding the Tour de France. Vegan. You think he didn’t do his research first? You think you know better than people who are professionally healthy?
Sorry to convey a condescending tone, but I find that your post called for something in kind.
The research is readily available. I accept that you are not vegan, and I am not trying to ‘convert’ you, but I do hope you agree that you have no basis to criticize a vegan diet as unhealthy. Nothing could be further from the truth, and all of the evidence, scientific and anecdotal, is against you.
At best, you could argue that a certain diet was unhealthy for someone that you knew. Clearly, the success of so many athletic, healthy vegans proves that the ‘vegan’ aspect of their diet was not the unhealthy factor. Yes, they were doing something wrong. Yes, there are unhealthy vegans who don’t eat enough diversity. Yes, there are even overweight vegans who just eat junk food. That does not mean that ‘vegan’ is unhealthy. That only means that veganism includes diversity, like just about every other aspect of human life.
Powerful post! Thank you!
Who says Zeus retired? There are plenty of us who still worship the Old Gods.
Anyway, this is a great post. Even the soil is omnivorous!
“You have again shirked responsibility for the violence that you perpetrate, killing an animal or paying someone else to kill it, by passing it off to something like your god’s will or master plan.”
Casey, every time you eat grains, soy or any type of legume, you are “paying someone else to kill” an animal. These foods were brought to your dinner plate by the devastation of a far-away ecosystem: this includes all the plants and animals that once thrived there. If you truly want to practice what you preach, then you can no longer eat any of these foods.
The cultivation of grains and soy, which are the foundation of the vegan diet, destroys topsoil. To understand the magnitude of devastation imposed by the erosion of topsoil takes some critical thinking and a willingness to see past the easy, pat solutions offered by the vegan community.
Kristen is introducing here a mature understanding and awareness of the morality around eating that, frankly, seems to have gone right over your head. You are blinded by the emotions you have surrounding your belief system and you cannot see past them.
The infatuation with vegan ideology still has your mind in its grip, so no amount of logical, sound argument or rock-solid evidence that anyone here presents is going to pierce this. Your mind is completely closed. You have to be ready to hear this information, otherwise it will just sound like weak-willed excuses from lusty, lazy carnivores.
Almost everyone abandons veganism eventually. And when they are ready to take that step, their minds creak open once again and the arguments you are now putting on a par with slavery and rape will begin to seem very wise and truthful.
When in the grip of a strong belief system like veganism, followers’ mindsets begin to resemble that of cult members. The parallels are stunning. Your arguments are rife with the soundbites, distortions and half-truths that are passed around the vegan community like Scripture. You believe all of these things to be true because you read them in a vegan book or heard them from a vegan leader (ex: many of our human ancestors were vegans).
When you are finally coming out of this belief system, you will be stunned to realize how much of the information you now quote as absolute truth is actually a web of smoky half-truths and distortions and “factoids” taken out of context. You will be embarrassed. Don’t be. The truth is painful, but it will set you free. Many have walked this exact road – you will be in very good company.
What you’re missing is that the majority of those crops (corn, soy) are grown to feed animals destined for milk/egg production or slaughter for meat. The fact is if you’re concerned about soil health, soil erosion, microbes, invertbrates, or small animals like field mice, rabbits, etc….by eating meat you are contributing to more damage to these ecosystems than any vegan does. If we all went vegan we’d use a tiny fraction of the land currently in use for growing these crops…land which could be rehabilitated back to the wild spaces our animal kin need to live natural lives.
How is this any different than my own argument for a return to pasture-based animal husbandry? (Except in my argument, we can actually BUILD topsoil QUICKLY by returning intensively-grazed ruminants to the restored pasture lands.) Return animals to pasture, and then eat THOSE animals.
Why raise and eat animals at all, when it is not required for our sustenance?
Except that it is. So, at this point our discussion on this particular thread is over. This post is not about the healthfulness of the vegan diet or the necessity of eating animals for human sustenance. It’s about my reflections on the miracle of life-giving soil, as influenced by two of my favorite authors, Wendell Berry and Lierre Kieth.
So, we’ll simply have to agree to disagree here since we can’t really keep engaging in this particular discussion without going severely off topic.
“What you’re missing is that the majority of those crops (corn, soy) are grown to feed animals destined for milk/egg production or slaughter for meat.”
Actually, this is a perfect example (thank you, Christa) of the distortions and “factoids” passed around the vegan community. Well-intended veg leaders issue this statement, and people blindly believe it.
One of the first things I realized when I started educating myself on this subject is that the reverse is true:
The factory farming of animals was set up IN RESPONSE TO the massive surplus of grain, not the other way around. What you repeat here is actually false. You have been lied to.
I implore you not to make the same mistake I did and blindly believe information passed to you from veg leaders. Start researching these issues for yourself. Ask the hard questions.
You cannot deny the fact that it takes a certain amount of grain/soy and water to raise x amount of meat. And that that grain and soy can be used to feed people directly. That’s not a factoid. That’s plain truth. Someone’s been drinking the WAPF kool-aid a little too long.
Please, ladies, let’s refrain from calling each other “blind” or insinuate someone’s been drinking “kool-aide”. Honestly, would you talk to each other like this if you were face to face in my living room, having a cup of coffee? (See my comments policy, please.)
Maybe you would, but I’d do just what I’m doing now and ask you both to be a little more respectful. Let’s all do our best to remember that we’re speaking to real, thoughtful people who are grappling with serious, difficult, heartfelt, and poignant issues.
I appreciate your point of views! Really, I do. And I love a healthy debate. But let’s try to be a bit more polite, okay?
What of all the grassland around the world which would not be suitable for growing crops but does in fact thrive from animals grazing on it?
First of all, I don’t eat soy. You claim that is the foundation of a vegan diet. You are making many assertions about things that you clearly don’t know much about.
Secondly, I grow most of my own food and get the rest from local farmers. So I do not destroy any “far-away ecosystems.”
Most importantly, my carbon footprint is a very, very small fraction of an omnivore. I believe that carbon footprint is the best measure we have of the “devastation” that you are referring to above, and if it is a competition (as your tone seems to imply), then vegans will win handily.
Sorry, but you are simply wrong in fact. I hope we can find common ground on certain factual premises before building up opinions from there.
Casey, I appreciate your well-thought and well supported arguments. You have said everything on my mind, the most important being the point about a balanced vegan diet that is also sustainable, and of a low carbon footprint. Many rounds of applause to you.
I love love love this comment, Kristen. It is so well put…
Shared. Great article; I have believed this for years & years.
Great post! Thanks for writing!
Hello, my question for you is this:
Nutritionally speaking, does masticating on the flesh of a dead cow or chicken or pig or fish become life in our bodies? From gardening myself and at one point being a biology student and taking courses in microbiology, I completely understand how microorganisms break down decaying matter into usable, nutrient dense, living soil. That is their purpose, their function, and what they are biologically, socioeconomically, metaphysically, created to do. It is obvious that death becomes life.
On the issue of violence: I do not believe that meat-eaters are intentionally being violent. Though I do find what I read once interesting: that some states do not allow butchers to sit on the jury of murder trials, as they are desensitized to the business of “killing”. If you have no qualms about killing an animal for your food, than that is your right. I know I couldn’t kill an animal with a moral conscience, especially when there is no need for me to do that to meet my nutritional needs.
What I do not understand ( and if you feel you do he an understanding please share) is how dead ( the blood has stopped pumping, the spirit gone) muscle, when put into a human body, brings life to it. That doesn’t make sense to me, though I know each person can only walk in the revelations they’ve received and the truth they are ready for.
Blessings.
You ask:
Nutritionally speaking, does masticating on the flesh of a dead cow or chicken or pig or fish become life in our bodies?
The answer: YES. Study human biology, particularly digestion, and you will see how animal flesh is converted into basic macro and micro nutrients which are in turn used to give energy to and provide the building blocks of our cells.
i will take you at your word with that, though I have come across research about how our dentition, stomach structure, jawbone, etc, are not similar to carnivores, like the lion but are more akin to the structure of herbivores, like apes.
However, if you are correct that eating meat gives the body nutrients, then so be it, that’s good for those who choose to eat meat. However, it is not imperative to eat meat to live, i.e. protein is readily available in vegetable and grain sources.
For me, growing up preparing and cooking raw meat always grossed me out, and i think at the very basis of my reasons for not eating meat, that is what comes into play. If I don’t want to, and I don’t have to…why do it?
Like anything, there are persuasive arguments, statistics, and “evidence” on both sides. There are health nuts that promote being anti-dairy, and those who praise the benefits of consuming raw milk. Like the health store that has a gluten-free section and a row over sells vital wheat gluten.
My stance is, if anyone wants to have a real conversation about the “truth” of food/nutrition in a positive light where both parties feel honored and respected, have at it. My job is not to convince or persuade, accuse or ridicule. It is simply to do my best to put into my body what I believe will benefit it most.
I apologize if I offended you in my comment earlier and for the aggression of others’ comments. What you are promoting is infinitely better than the SAD.
Blessings.
I hate this’we are more like an herbivore than a carnivore’ line. No one is claiming that we are carnivores, we are omnivores! We do not have any of the mechanisms for digesting vegetation that a true oherbivore, like a rabbit or cow, has. Sorry for the typos, am having difficulty typing on my phone.
I hate to state the obvious here, but plants are dead too. Are we so removed from the cycles of life and death (so beautifully rendered here) that we can’t see our own natural role in both?
That’s a question I’ve had most of my life. Plants are alive and have to be killed to be eaten. From a vegetarian or vegan perspective, how is killing a plant easier or better than killing an animal?
I most likely will never try to convince someone they should go against their conscience in choosing what to eat, but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask questions to try and understand the perspective better, expecially when the reasons seem illogical to me and I’m seeking a better understanding.
I am curious how dead, the chlorophyl has stopped converting and the sap has stopped flowing, plant tissue, when put into a human body, brings life to it.
It’s called digestion. Our bodies process the nutrients we consume, whether plant or animal, for the use of our body’s life.
Last I checked, plants are alive too, and do not stay that way once harvested for our consumption.
Quoting Lierre Keith pretty much told me that this article was going no where. Her story is one of dementia from self imposing a bizarre diet and calling it vegetarian. That aside, I am bewildered the logical argument that “nature eats animals so there is nothing wrong if we do” is used here. Not all of nature eats animals. Most do interact with other animals such as the way bacteria in a herbivores’ gut is essential for the herbivores’ survival. Humans do not “need” to interact any more than that. The fact that humans can survive on a diet of varied sources somehow has reached the consciousness that we must use all sources. How does the fact that an obligate carnivore such as a Lion, brutally catches and eats a gazelle becomes the rationalization that humans should do the same thing? Humans have a choice and if that choice is to eat an animal, we have an ethical obligation to cause as little harm as within our ability. The original definition of VEGAN is not absolutist. By the use of “free of animal involvement as far as possible and practical” denotes understanding that the world is imperfect including death. Manufacturing excuses so as not to be responsible for choices is a hallmark of immaturity if not immorality.
My point is not “nature eats animals, so there is nothing wrong if we do.” Rather, it is “soil eats animals, so therefore we all do, whether we like it or not, since all life comes from (and returns to) the soil.”
Do you not see that my point precisely IS that ALL of nature is dependent on eating animals? Even the theoretical herbivores who never accidentally ingest insects still eat plants whose life DEPENDS on the soil. We all do. And the soil eats animals.
Eating a piece of broccoli that contains calcium from animal bones that the soil consumed is completely different then eating a piece of beef from a cow that was tortured and then murdered, just so we could enjoy beef.
What makes you think it’s impossible to eat animal foods from animals that have not been “tortured and murdered”? could you not eat eggs from happy chickens? Drink milk from happy cows?
Given that 99% of the animal products come from factory farms, it makes it highly unlikely that you will stumble upon any happy animal products. But on the slim chance that you do, cows have to be or have been pregnant to give milk. How are you going to get the milk if the calf needs it? Wait until it has been weaned. OK, I will give you that. The cow trades milk for the food and protection. So the cow starts drying up because this is a happy farm and no hormones are used. So she gets pregnant again. Repeat cycle. How likely do you think this is to happen? (incidentally , milk breed bulls are killed as calves as they don’t produce milk and under produce meat. Do we need to talk about veal?) Ok, moving on to chickens. Happy chickens with plenty of space and bugs to eat. We have to be tricky here because the chickens really are not too keen on the eggs disappearing. So once in a while you place a fake egg in a switcheroo. Then after a few years she does not lay eggs often but since this is a happy farm you let her live out her 25 year lifespan. See scenario above. Because something is technically possible does not imply any degree of likelyhood. Sadly, because of the technical possibility, humans like the one firing squad shooter, convince themselves they are the one firing the blank.
This happens in my backyard daily. My chickens are happy and spend their days eating whatever they want, plus the organic feed I personally mix for them. My cow and goats spend their days grazing and enjoying the sun. They give us eggs and milk, we give them a secure place to live. I don’t see the harm occuring here.
I’m curious to know how you are able to determine that these chickens are not happy with their eggs disappearing daily?
1. “..99% of the animal products come from factory farms..”
I can pretty much guarantee that nowhere near 99% of the animal products eaten by people on this list come from factory farms. This isn’t the clueless general public you’re speaking to here. We are for the most part people who have years of experience studying and experiencing this issue in our own lives. As for myself, I would venture a guess of 10% of what I eat is conventional, and that from occasionally eating out.
2. “..cows have to be or have been pregnant to give milk. How are you going to get the milk if the calf needs it?”
The average cow produces volumes more milk than one, or even two, calves require. Happy Farms, as your pejorative implies, can have it both ways. And yes, eventually the calf is weaned, in similar fashion as it would in the wild, and the cycle begins again. She goes into heat, accepts a bull, and gives birth 9 months later. This is the natural way.
3. “(incidentally , milk breed bulls are killed as calves as they don’t produce milk and under produce meat.”
On Happy Farms, this does not happen. Even milk breed bulls make fine steers and produce plenty of good quality, grass-fed meat.
4. “chickens really are not too keen on the eggs disappearing…”
Oh dear. Chickens, in my life-long experience of raising them, don’t give two farts about you taking their eggs. With rare exceptions, they only time they put up a fuss about having their eggs taken is when they are broody, which generally lasts a few days, and then they are back to their usual cheerful selves pecking about in the farmyard.
5. “Then after a few years she does not lay eggs often but since this is a happy farm you let her live out her 25 year lifespan.”
I expect this happens occasionally on some happy farms, but I would guess it would be more likely to occur on one run by vegetarians. On most Happy Farms, she would make an absolutely fabulous and extremely nutritious stew, and the farmers would be ever so grateful for her generous contributions to the good of all.
I agree with poizenivy. KristenM’s article is flawed for a simple reason: because the soil or plants need or have animal material, this is not an excuse to kill animals, particularly the way mostly are killed today. Also, because ones accepts death does not mean it has to accept suffering and torture. And that’s what people do when they choose to eat animal body parts and secretions. I have heard the B12 argument, the plant having feelings argument, the humane and organic meat argument many times. They are all flawed. We don’t eat B12 because we can’t anymore, we use to eat it from soil with our veggies but since the introduction of pesticides, we can no longer do that. Plants may have feelings, we don’t know for certain, but when we see an animal fighting for his life, screaming, before being slaughtered (or many times abused before that), no one can deny they do have feelings. Eating organic/grass fed meat does not address the cruelty against animals, just instead of giving them crap food and keeping them confined their whole life, they eat and move a little better. But the destination is the same: the slaughterhouse. There is nothing humane about slitting an animal’s throat. Who are we kidding here? One has yet to come with a convincing argument to keep causing unnecessary animal suffering the way we do. This is not a war between vegans and non-vegetarians, it’s not personal, it’s not about being perfect, it’s about the animals and the way they are exploited to satisfy one’s addiction or taste buds. Vegans are not perfect, and that’s not what veganism is all about. It’s about end the unnecessary suffering of animals the best we can. For an in-depth understanding of the issue and answers to all most common excuses, I strongly recommend you check the Vegetarian Food for Thought podcast
I like the article, but I need to get something off my chest really… What is it with all the ‘us’ and ‘them’ lately? Not so much in the article itself, but especially in the comments. Also in the comments on related sites like http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/2011/06/most-vegetarians-return-to-eating-meat/ and on some Dutch sites I’m reading, too.
It feels like people are saying that ‘we’ (the realfood/WAPFs) are so cool and smart and ‘them’ (the vegans) are too stupid to even make a good argument, which appearantly is not just because they are w.r.o.n.g. (obviously) but also because their minds are underfed, for they don’t eat any animal products.
And frankly, that attitude really doesn’t make me feel good.
Now don’t get me wrong, I really feel like the WAPF (and the like) ideas about food are the most logical philosophies around. Way more logical than veganism is. For me, the B12-issue alone is enough to know that this can never be the ‘natural’ diet. But that doesn’t mean I have to call my vegan friends stupid for following it…
Granted, there are more than enough vegans whom one simply cannot have a proper discussion with. There are just as many WAPF-believers though, who are just followers of one guru or the other and somehow ended up withs WAPF. Stupid people are in every camp. There are also a lot of perfectly sane and sincere people on both sides. People whom you can discuss with in a grown-up, friendly manner. People who do find it really interesting what the other person has to say, because it may just broaden their horizon.
Please let me emphasize again that I don’t feel the articles I mentioned here are the culprit; it’s really more of the comments in the style of “I was vegan before but I feel so much better now and how stupid is Alicia Silverstone for being a vegan and PETA-promoter”…. she is also trying to do the right thing, folks! And she may not be doing it the way you would, but at least it is so much better than the SAD, not-thinking-about-food-at-all-way that most Americans and Europeans go with. So why fight a war against vegans, trying to ‘get’ them on any argument? Trying to accuse vegans of not really helping the earth (which I see people do!) is really a waste of time and energy, which we all could spend so mucht better (in my eyes), by trying to inform SAD-eating people…
Sorry for such a long comment, I just really needed to get it out and I think this is a site where a lot of intelligent and respecting WAPF-minded people are reading, so…. And really, thank you so much for writing all the beautiful blogposts! They really help.
With warm regards,
Nienke (Netherlands)
Thank you Nienke, for your thoughtful response!
While the B12 argument seems to be a no brainier, lets take a closer look. B12 is made by soil bacteria. It is in meat because they eat dirty food and water that we no longer do. The Framingham study showed us the 46% of the people eating the “normal” diet were B12 deficient at the paltry level the US has. ( very low) nearly all were deficient at the Japanese government level. Oddly, fewer (percentage wise) Vegans were deficient. This was thought to be due that they were more aware of the need to supplement.
(I hope I understand your comment, I’m having a little difficulty with the lanquage -what does paltry mean?)
Yes, I’m aware of the fact that ‘normal’ eating people often are B12-deficient, too. Still, that is not an argument in favor of veganism.
As far as I know, even though soil contains B12, there is no evidence of being able to gather enough active B12 without eating animal products. Even though there are vegans eating soil for this reason, I haven’t yet seen any studies confirming this is active and sufficient.
Even though many plants have been named as B12-sources (kelp, Comfrey etc), I still haven’t heard from them being a sufficient source of active B12, either. There may just be one or two obscure plants of algae that do provide this. It doesn’t make sense though, that these are ‘the’ sources to come by B12. In my opinion, food and health need to be logical. If the only source for a vegan diet to get B12 are these obscure sources, than this is not logical. Not all of humankind has acces to them, especially not in the old hunther-gatherer days. So it makes no sense these should be necessary for one to maintain good health.
In my view, hunther-gatherers pretty well ate what they could get. Dead animal is an easy source of proteïn and B12 (even though they probably didn’t know
), so there’s no reason to not make it a part of one’s diet. There is however, every reason to exclude bio-industrial meat and milk from the diet, but that’s a whole other story alltogether.
pal·try/ˈpôltrē/Adjective
1. (of an amount) Small or meager.
2. Petty; trivial
Plant sources of B12 are questionable as they maybe analogs that the body recognizes but can not use, blocking the useful B12.
Most B12 deficiencies are thought to be an absorption problem, not a dietary problem. You have a slightly less chance of having a B12 deficiency by being a practicing Omnivore.
Avoiding supplementation because it is not natural, really only makes sense if you also do not believe in using sanitation, antibiotics, fire, electricity, tools etc……..
I’m still not sure if we’re on the same page. I’m definately not avoiding supplementation. I’m a seller even
, but I do advocate healthy and sane usage of supplements.
It is my believe that one *should* be able to obtain all nutrients from a healthy diet, without the need for supplementation. BUT, most/many people simply don’t have such a healthy diet. In that case, it’s better to use supplementation (preferably from a natural foodsource) than to stay deprived of the nutrients.
In the same manner tha SAD-eaters will need some form of supplementation because their diet isn’t natural and wholesome, so do vegans. That kind of is all the proof I need to know veganism is not a natural diet, as I said before: supplementation (in one form or the other) is needed when practicing this diet, in order to stay healthy. *Grok* didn’t have access to supplementation, therefor veganism can never be a ‘natural’ diet. That doesn’t mean someone cannot follow it (with supplements), at all – just that it’s not natural (as some vegans claim it to be).
That’s all, really. Not more, not less.
The fact that B12-deprivation is mostly caused by the lack of intrinsic factor or the lack of B11 in the diet doesn’t change this.
All I’m saying is: even though veganism is no natural diet, that still is no reason to start a war against vegans. It certainly is a better diet than SAD is, and vegans certainly have given their diet a better thought than SAD-eaters did. So even though it’s not my cup of tea, I see no reason to harass vegans… align with them to stride against SAD and it’s impact on health & the planet seems so much more effective…
Dear Kristen,
You are a girl after my own heart. I believed so strongly in the veg ideology that I gave almost 15 years of my life to it, culminating in a hard-core stint as a raw vegan and then fruitarian.
Last summer, my long, long dance with veg eating finally came to a bitter end when I “accomplished” a 30-day stint of raw fruitarianism, eating tons of calories each day from fresh, ripe fruit and massive amounts of raw greens. According to all my beloved raw gurus, I should have been on top of the world. Instead, I was lethargic, riddled with brain fog, and about 25 pounds heavier.
I had my first eggs on Day 31 in YEARS, and it was a revelation. I couldn’t believe what happened next – instead of vomiting them right back up (which I had been warned would happen by those trusty raw vegan leaders), all of my brain fog vanished and I felt a level of pure, pristine energy come over me that is simply indescribable. My heart literally pounded with joy. And all this from two poached eggs! I was FLOORED.
Watching my health come back with a vengeance over the next few weeks, as I continued eating more high-quality, nutrient dense animal products, showed me irrefutably that eating animals is, for most of us, an absolute necessity for health.
Today, I do not believe that most of us can absorb all the nutrients that our bodies need from plants. I have spent the past nine months educating myself massively on this subject, and have come to understand that if you want to opt out of causing harm to animals with your diet, you’re going to have to avoid eating. Sorry, but them’s the facts.
I poured some of my passion on this subject into my own “Wake up and smell the espresso, babe!” posts on my own website (I am also a food blogger and writer):
Part 1: http://www.my-healthy-eating-secrets.com/paleo-diet-trial-day-6.html
Part 2: http://www.my-healthy-eating-secrets.com/healthy-eating-paleo-trial-day-29.html
Thank you for this wonderful post.
Warmly,
Heather
This seems like a lousy justification to eat animal products. This ignores that the animals we slaughter are sentient beings who are killed before their time in very gruesome ways. Unlike the bones that are naturally in our soil due to animals dying of natural causes. Also instead of using blood or bones, seashells can be used to add calcium to the soil (although not “vegan” discarded beach shells don’t involve killing an animal). Also if the concept is here that we want to minimize damage to our living soil veganism is the best way to do that. Animals consume crops that are mass produced using commercial farming methods that kill the soil. Even animals that consume organic food or are pasture raised take up land that could be used for farming or remain natural for wildlife to live on.
Locally raised, pastured animals don’t eat anything but local grass. Most domestic animals couldn’t survive in the wild, so “before their time” is meaningless. I have no problem with your dietary choices–I was a vegetarian for 18 years–but you do your cause a disservice by accusing anybody and everybody who eats meat of being a torturer and murderer. It’s adolescent, inflammatory, and wrong.
I have opted out of the factory farming system completely; all the animal products I eat are raised locally on grass and organic feed on small farms. By making no room for conscious carnivores in your world view, and lumping us together with uncaring consumers of CAFO meat, you simply make yourself look strident and stupid and alienate those you might otherwise find common cause with in the larger struggle of reforming our food systems to be more ethical and sustainable.
Thank you Peter.
I am a former Vegetarian, now meat eater. I am still horrified at the thought of eating meat that was tortured. And I do eat that meat.
Embracing Death is fine. Just please do not ask me to embrace torture, barbaric conditions and horrific pain inflicted on my food.
Beautifully said, Peter. My thinking is that the worldview that omnivores are complicit in torture, violence and murder is in part another symptom of how the modern world has become so estranged from the natural one. The beautiful cycles and systems of nature will not be altered by some folks refusing to accept that humans have always been a predatory species. They seem to equate killing an animal for food with torturing an animal for fun, convenience, or profit, and often represent themselves as more enlightened than us cruel meat-eaters.
I wonder if part of the blame is not also in the lap of the Disney-esque anthropomorphic representations of animals so ubiquitous in our culture for the past 50 odd years. It may sound silly on first mention, but many of the posts here have hints of things I have heard countless times over the years from vegetarians. Sometimes the things people who have no farm experience actually believe about animals is quite frankly, hilarious, but also, very sad. Our authentic connection to each other, both human and animal, as players in the natural circle of life, is lost to ignorance and the arrogance of believing one is above it all, and can design a new paradigm of how nature should conduct Herself.
I like this registered dietician’s take on whether or not ex-vegan’s stories make a good case against a vegan diet as being appropriate for everyone.
http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/11/do-ex-vegans%E2%80%99-stories-make-the-case-against-vegan-diets.html
Much the same way you accuse vegans of clinging to dogma in spite of “reality”; lapsed vegans are going to cling to any dogma they can find to justify and reassure themselves that going back on the ethics and morals they once ostensibly adhered to (Tasha, for example, was one of the most vocal and vehement vegans online for quite a while). A clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.
In high school, a friend of mine did an awesome science fair project. In short, she raised two bean plants with identical care, except the words spoken to it. One plant was praised and complimented several times a day, the other was insulted and criticized. Upon laboratory analysis, the plants produced beans that were very different in chemical makeup, with very different percentages of various nutrients and anti-nutrients. Her conclusion was that plants are indeed sentient, but on a level we don’t yet understand.
The relationship between my vegan boyfriend and I (I was vegitan at the time, that is, vegan without the politics) did not survive the discussion that followed the science fair. To me, if plants are sentient in any way, vegans MUST ask the same questions of their lunch as they ask omnivores to consider: Did that lettuce agree to martyr itself to feed you?
If one is willing to concede plant sentience on any level, the only “ethical” option is starvation. I sure wasn’t going to go there!
Great post, Kristen! Thanks so much for your insights.
OMG, Peggy. Your friend’s science fair experiment totally blew my mind. I’ve believed this in a general way for a long time. It’s why I’m so insistent on eating “food with love” and “received with gratitude”. But holy cow. That’s INTENSE. I wish it were reproduced somewhere so that I could point readers to it!!
Wonderful! I’ve believed for a long time that plants are just as sentient as any other living beings, even if we don’t know how to talk to them. (It’s also why I take stories of tribal shamans learning from plants at face value.) No matter what appears on my plate, at some point it was alive. Plus, plenty of plants produce substances meant to sicken and even kill predators, so the idea that plants are just giving of themselves for sustenance does not sit right with me.
I do find the idea fascinating and worth further exploration.
But I hope people understand this experiment has a very flawed methodology: a sample of 2 plants, one experimental and one control, is not a valid sample. All the results could as easily be explained be chance. Only when the same results are obtained with 100 plants, you may finally be able to make a claim.
My boyfriend did a experiment in school similar to the one mentioned above, although he used 5 plants and played music instead of talking to them.
I believe he had heavy metal, classical, punk, country and a control plant without music. Surprisingly the heavy metal plant grew the best. I don’t recall what type of plant he used.
thank you for your post – the simplicty, elegance and thoughtfulness of words. i’m not a vegan though i am a vegetarian and i have at times been called to “justify” that – after all if i really felt that way then why did i consume (eat or buy) any animal products. but it is as you say – life of one = death of another(s) – that is the way of the bio-system. and to deny that doesn’t make sense and is in some ways fool hardy (IHMO). i wonder how many well meaning but actually more costly decisions are made on those misquided in some ways principals?
I think it would be in everyone’s best interest to search for the podcast interviews of Lierre Keith. Listen to what she has to say before jumping on her bandwagon. Her definitions do not correspond to any I know of ( I.E “all vegetarians eat steak once in a while”) I will not post links as I would understand that you would think I fabricated them.
@poizenivy In nature, with few exceptions, animals die terrible deaths. I would not be one to jusitify the cruel, cold and heartless treatment and killing of animals that factory farms of the mega-argo-industies do. A organic pasture farmer that has passion for his/her craft treats animals with dignity and respect throughout there lives and death. No animal in the “wild” gets this. Animals do not lay down and have a last sleep before returning to the earth, the tranisition from life to death is a violent and painfull end for all of them in fact. This is not bad or evil, it just is.
I woudl agree with those (often vegans) thst we humans can raise to a higher level of awareness and be conscious of our effect on the world, but I alwasy resent the ideal that one must be vegan to do this.
As an aside, there are all these reports about V & M defiences in meat eaters vs vegans, yet all these anidotal experiences of people feeling better and having a higher level of enegry when eating a bit of meat. There are two questions that come to my mind regarding this.
1) Is is possible that there are some people that CAN get all they need from a good vegan diet, but some of us have just not got the bio-chemical make up to do the same and opperate on a high level?
2) When studies are made about health levels and longevity comparing vegans to omnivores, do they ever look as a group at comparing to natural meat eaters as opposed to factory meat eaters? The longest lived people in the old as groups are all omnivories. Those healthy elderly people in Sardina and Okinawa and the Amish people, are rarely vegatarian, and yet these are the people looked to for examples of healthy, enegergentic long lives. I think too many of these studies only have average american diets to compare to. The eaters of mass produced factory farm food. I think it would be a big effort for a stufy to get together a large sample of exclusive pasture and game meat eaters to compare too.
It is true the longest lived cultures are omnivores. But that has nothing to do with chemical, hormonal laden animal products in the United States. Also overlooked is the the amount of animal products is only a few percent of the calories eaten, not the 30-50% that the SAD is.
“The Blues Zones” commissioned by the National Geographic is very informative.
Sure. Fine. Marvellous. I am also a former Vegetarian.
But while we embrace death, do we also embrace torture, horrific pain, and barbaric conditions for the animals we eat?
It seems to me that the ideal is to find a healthy diet that works for you, is less detrimental to the planet, does not include unnecessary cruelty and suffering, and involves taking an active role in getting to know where your food comes from, who produced it, producing some yourself, and relying primarily on whole foods and consuming less processed foods. This can mean a wide range of dietary choices that include varying amounts of animal products to none at all. If it works for you and makes you feel healthier and more connected to the natural world, good for you. But all the energy spent arguing how your diet is superior to diets that differ from yours seems exhausting to me. Live and let live. There’s a lot of different paths to take, and ultimately humans have survived and thrived on a wide range of diets. Different diets work for different constitutions and perceptions about living in harmony with the world around us. I don’t believe there’s a perfect diet, it’s entirely situational, personal, based on what is available, and constantly evolving.
And by all means, get out into the garden and see how it shapes your perception of food, which is what I find to be the most important point in this article.
And as an aside, you can provide a lot of the necessary nutrients and micro-nutrients to your crops by utilizing other plants and fungi – dynamic accumulators, nitrogen fixers, etc. – as well as utilizing human urine, rather than purchasing bone and blood meal that has a higher embodied energy cost…but that’s a topic for another day
I’m just wondering what some of the more vehement vegetarians here believe would happen to domesticated animals if we didn’t breed them, protect them, and raise them for grazing and fertilizing the land, and providing milk, eggs, and food (and I’m not talking factory-farmed animals).
1) They would be killed by other animals in the wild.
2) They would become extinct.
And this scenario would result in a complete loss of top soils and any permaculture, a loss of ecosystems and the other species that depend on them, and world-wide malnutrition and famine.
Do you think soybeans and wheat gluten are really the answer?
Try feeding either one of those exclusively to a baby who is weaning off their mother’s milk and see what happens – wasting, stunting, death.
Just wondering if vegans have considered the fact that when they eat plants, they take the plant’s life when it is pulled from the soil. The plant dies. My point is that death is inevitable.
Like the article says, life comes from death, it is all part of the cycle. In my humble opinion, the key is to treat death – whether it be the death of a plant or animal to provide sustenance – with reverence and respect and thanksgiving.
Disclaimer: I’m not advocating cruel or thought-less treatment of animals, etc. etc. That said…
I want to re-iterate a point that has been made variously above. Animals are not people. In itself this isn’t a value claim, but a claim of some fundamental dissimilarity. Now I’m not saying that difference makes us special in some privileged way, per se, but…
To make it a value claim, I would add: let’s not put the cart before the horse here. Animals are not people.
We (people or what led to people as we are now) are part of a complex system which, for the greater portion of time, we developed alongside in a somewhat reciprocal way.
Now, we have a great deal of influence and control and effect on the system, perhaps moreso than it does on us.
Now, we have a pretty staggering responsibility. For a short period of time here, we’ve been mucking around with things without understanding them, at first, whatsoever. Now, with a sliver of understanding, we at least understand that we’re pretty good at mucking it up.
Where I think the people on the various sides of this issue are on the same page is at this point, that we have a responsibility (barring sociopathy) to fix, undo damage, perpetuate homeostasis, things of that sort.
But to return to the top bit: I think it is impossible to take any approach that simulates removing humans from the system. We are simply too imbricated in the current state of affairs to drop everything and see what happens. Miles to go before we sleep, and all that.
And I definitely disagree with you if you’ve gone as far as the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement people (http://www.vhemt.org/). The epitome of cart before the horse. I’m not going to insist that we’re special or especially deserving of our position of privilege with respect to the complex systems of life (read: crushing responsibility), but now we’re already where we are, and I am pretty impressed with the potential, if nothing else.
I just want to say that I love this post and how thoughtful it is. It’s beautiful
I also want to say that I agree with so much of what’s been said here about real food making sense, especially from the evolutionary perspective. And I love the compassionate comment near the end reminding us that we aren’t separate. There isn’t an “us” and “them” and we’re fighting the dogmatic vegans and stupid vegetarians, it’s something that we’re all in together. That said, I think it’s fair to write about what you believe like KristenM did here on FR and other similar posts (like the Healthy Home Economist). But again, I think we need to be civil and loving, above all!
Finally, someone mentions VHEMT! Most important part of that ideology is the V. (Espousing the ideals of that organization is like navigating by the north star – the point is not to get to the north star, just to navigate in that direction in order to steer clear of mortal danger).
A couple of unconnected points from my perspective:
There seems to be a lot of confusing ideology with biology and vice versa in this discussion. Biology is alive, messy, fantasticaly complicated, and almost infinitely varied and adaptable on this planet. Ideology, on the other hand is abstract, generalized, tending to be simplistic and more or less rigid.
The two aren’t particularly amenable to exchange.
Ultimately nothing our species does is sustainable, nor can be sustainable, as long as we continue to breed and behave like a planetary cancer. Arguments as to which lifestyle is better for the planet are moot as long as we continue to ignore the exponential growth of our species and its inevitable consequences on the biosphere.
Oh my, what a gorgeous post. I love this and feel the same. I am grateful to a Google Plus friend for linking to this article. Subbing to the blog. Yay!
I recently read Lierre Keith’s book and really, really, loved it, so much that I wanted to start again at the beginning when I was finished. Then I read all the negative reviews of it on Amazon and, discounting all the angry vegans, there were a few that pointed out factual errors in the book that did give me pause and made me concerned about her overall accuracy. I still think it is an amazing book and highly recommend it.
Would you like to share with us the “factual errors”?
I’m completely stunned and surprised when I see people thinking and speaking reasonable. Choice between vegan or not should be decided upon real arguments and facts and by each person. Such decision is of highest importance if raising a child where insufficient or wrong nutrition can have devastating effects on development. You don’t want to go wrong there I suppose and also everybody needs to inform themselves from reputable sources about nutrients needed by the body, so it is simple if we put it that way. Our bodies need some elements in our nutrition to function properly, the question is which route will each of us take?
Read _The China Study_ by T Colin Campbell and you might feel differently about meat.
Anne,
The China Study has been thoroughly debunked. Please see:
The China Study Discredited
Great post, Kristen! Like Soli, I’ve wanted to post under this title for a long time but couldn’t find the words. No wisdom to add, just a hearty hear hear!!
What’s surprising is that I purposefully tried to stay away from all the controversial stuff surrounding nutrition, etc. (I may one day make that case all in one post, but I didn’t feel at all argumentative when I wrote this. I just wanted to post something from the heart about the nature of soil and how it dovetails into my non-vegan worldview.) Yet despite how very non-argumentative and confrontational my perspective was I still got so many argumentative comments!
Great article. I thought of this comic right when I started reading: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1722
Very good post. I tried to be a vegetarian a few years ago but just could not do it. I never felt guilty over it, but this essay gives me a really good understanding of why it didn’t take.
I also deeply appreciate the spiritual/metaphysical theme here … it’s worthy of some consideration and pondering.
Some people become vegetarians to help in getting the most micro-nutrients and energy possible. I myself amn’t a vegetarian, but you need to understand this; the higher you go in the food pyramid (higher means eating a cow as opposed to a plant), the lesser energy you get. Energy is lost as you go up the pyramid (a scientific fact).
Arguably the most important micro-nutrients are easiest to get from animal products — all the fat soluble vitamins like A, D, K, and E; magnesium and calcium, iron, B-12, choline. The truth is that the higher up the food chain you walk, the more concentrated the nutrients become. It’s why one ounce of liver is so nutrient-dense compared to an ounce of any plant food. In any case, I’ve got no qualms with vegetarians. They often eat eggs or milk or invertebrate seafood, so at least they get all these concentrated nutrients.
Beautifully written. Not only do I garden & raise my own chickens (for meat and eggs)I use death every day in my art…I work in porcelain, which I have aged myself. My clay is completely covered in fine mold, which get mixed into the clay and fired to create my little artworks. Death is life!
Maybe someone else has already mentioned it but nothing can be sustained without death. I hear a lot of vegans talk about eating without death/violence but yet the only thing that keeps them thinking that is ignorance. Thousands of animals die harvesting a field of grain (including large animals such as baby fawns, in addition to the rabbits, moles, mice, ect.), so they can then eat the grain and think there was no death in a loaf of bread, but that is only because they weren’t a part of the process and only see the end result.
As far as health goes, we have been eating less and less animal fats and proteins for the last 100 years and as we’ve done that our diabetes, cancers, and heart diseases have sky rocketed. We can debate all day on why that is (industrial food is my short answer) but until very recently in human history, we have always survived on a diet based on animal protein. It is an odd stand to take (I feel) to say that the last couple of million years of evolution was wrong. The only reason you and I are here is because our ancestors ate meat and milk, without it, we wouldn’t be where we are today with such choices as veganism (whether you think that is good or bad is another subject!).
“we have been eating less and less animal fats and proteins for the last 100 years”‘
What planet are you from?
She’s clearly from planet earth. Please refrain from being rude or sarcastic. The USDA’s own data reflects that consumption of animal meats and fats has fallen, while consumption of vegetable oils, sugars, and grains has skyrocketed In the last century.
Thank you Kristen. I should have been clearer. I meant traditional animal fats and proteins. It is a fact that animal fats like Lard have been villainized at the same time people started buying tubs of Crisco. Remember when they told everybody that margarine was heart health? Oh, oops. Like you said, when diabetes, heart disease, and cancer started spiking was the exact time our consumption of so many vegetable oils, sugars, and grains also spiked.
As a side note, I LOVE your site. I post it to my facebook and other message boards online. I’m busy (who isn’t) and don’t read very many blogs but yours is one I do. Your “how to make butter” is how I figured out how to make better butter. I always use ice water now to wash. I have a Jersey and she really produces cream!
My head cold is getting to me, that should have read….Like Kristen said, the consumption of vegetable oils, sugars, and grains have skyrocketed and that has coincided with the rise of cancer, heart disease, and diabetes.
I don’t want to be controverial either, but as Christians what is our understanding of this New Testament scripture in I Timothy Chapter 4, verses 1-4? It seems to be indicating God made animals for us to eat, and it is pleasing to Him as long as we do it with thanksgiving for His creations.
The right thing to do after a day of stoning adulterers. I agree.
Please let’s try to keep discussion on topic.
Just tired of people using Christianity to justify horrible things – colonialism, sexism, racism, homophobia, bigotry, ignorance, etc.
Enough already!
Vegans choose veganism to “do less harm.” We know death happens and is part of agriculture.
Vegans do not claim purity.
We simply do what we can – not to avoid death – but to avoid unnecessary suffering.
Raising billions of animals in concentration camps where we subject them to suffering, disease and an unnatural existence is unethical and immoral. it’s also unnecessary.
I raise my own food, including meat and milk, just so you know. I have both dairy goats and dairy cows and have raised a variety of meat animals. If I chose (or could not) raise my own meat & milk, there are a variety of wonderful options. In fact, support a local family farmer!
Hard to imagine how this is scalable for 6 billion people.
There is no paradigm I have ever seen that is more sustainable for this overpopulated planet than millions of small, mixed-use, rotational grazing farms direct-marketing to their local communities.
You and I are making the same vote with our dollars Charles. You vote against CAFO meat and milk by not buying either. I vote by raising my own meat, milk, and eggs. We are really the same in this regard. By you saying that you are against factory farmed animals and that is why you are vegan, well that is the exact same thing I am also saying/doing. We are only going about it two different ways.
The fact is, Veganism is the one that can never truly be sustainable. To be truly sustainable you have to have animals on your land. If something happened tomorrow (to our world), I could close borders and sustain myself and my family (with the help of a neighbors bull). Someone that is Vegan could never do that, you have to bring in too much, buy too many supplements and products from far away that you can’t sustain yourself. With only a few acres I could feed my entire family, very well. Just a thought.
Your post had me in tears. It cemented some of my recent circle of life musing for me. Thank you.
This is an interesting post, but completely disregards the fact that there’s a difference between killing something (unnatural death) and natural death. Surely the soil feeds on either form, but unnatural death need not be the sole source of nutrients for the soil.
Similarly, while this post has a religious tone, it also totally disregards the Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism), all of which advocate non-violence to both humans and animals (what you casually disdain as a “poetic” idea), and clearly all stipulate that vegetarianism is a prerequisite to enlightenment.
These faiths are many thousands of years old and it seems disingenuous of you to not even mention them. While vegetarianism is not the same as veganism, the ultimate end idea is the same: animals are alive and sentient and, as humans, we should not kill them.
How is killing something an “unnatural” death? I can think of plenty of times in nature where one creature kills another for food. Why should humans be any exception?
Also, please don’t misread my tone. I have/had no disdain when I use the word “poetic.” I meant it! It is a beautiful, poetic idea, and I love Beauty and Poetry.
It is a wonderful post. I regret reading the comments.
Everyone always wants tolerance for their own way of life, and yet rarely has any for those who live around them.
Thanks again for your post. It was beautiful and thought provoking.
I want an apple tree to eat my body! haha! Lovely post, I really enjoyed reading it.
I also somewhat regret reading the comments. People are quite harsh. I really don’t feel too comfortable around vegans much anymore. (Mainly because I work in a lab and grew up in a hunting family)They can be quite judgmental against me.
Thanks again for the beautiful post!
Totally brilliant! We could have used this in Oakland a couple of weeks ago where evangelical vagans are trying to have all animals banned from urban farms. Good grief!
I have also been thinking through this web of life and reflecting on the irony of humans who, through enbalming, attempt to render our flesh hostile to the life that would connect us back to the earth and make us part of the great cycle. How foolish our need to differentiate ourselves.
You’re proposing a false dilemma, that either one is purely vegan or purely omnivorous. Veganisn is an attempt to consider the value the life of sentient beings and develop a lifestyle that minimises harm to such beings.
Sure, you can’t completely remove animals from the global or even local food systems. But what you can do is consciously reduce the amount of animal products you use.
While for other reasons I found your discourse unsatisfactory, I feel it’s used as an excuse to continue the whimsical use of animals as per the status quo.
Well said.
Vegans fail to realize that billions (Yes! Billions!) of animals die in the production of fruits, cereals and vegetables through clearing, tillage, pesticides, herbicides, mechanical weeding, harvesting and then there is the long distance transport issue. Vegan diets are not sustainable on most of the planet through out the year without supplements or long distance transport of food. That means petroleum or other fuels used, wildlife killed on the roads, etc. Veganism is not a “do no harm” but rather a self-denial. Omnivores is sustainable and honest.
I don’t have a problem with someone being on a particular diet but they should be honest and not militant or evangelical – especially since that makes them hypocrites.
Wish I’d seen this post some months ago, so I could have joined in the discussion. As a vegan-turned-hunter, I found it very interesting to read both the post and the comments.
I don’t understand some of the replies made.
Let’s make this clear, under no circumstances is veganism ever *more* damaging than animal production. Because in all circumstances if you’re producing meat, you’re growing extra crops to feed them. All the downsides of vegetable production are doubled plus you’re killing even more animals. Every year 58 billion animals are killed worldwide for food. How many crops does that require? How much extra water? Myou can google these answers.
The purchase of B12 supplements is ridiculed for having to rely on big pharma. First, B12 is produced by a very wide variety of companies and is not a drug. No pharma is involved. Second, how is any more reliant than the companies you buy your meat from? Unless you’re tapping wells, growing crops, raising livestock and killing it yourself, you’re relying on someone, somewhere. Buying a $6 bottle of 90 days worth of B12 is far less expensive and harmful to the enviroment than getting it from meat.
As for nutrition, it’s a myth you need animal protein. Please refer to the China Study. Please look at the sheer amount of athletes and celebrities who are perfectly healthy as vegans.
As a vegan, my motivations is simply to do as little harm as possible. I accept I can’t be perfect towards animals. Just as I accept I will sometimes falter as a husband, a father and a Christian. But everyday I do my best and improve, and to atone for my failings. Most vegans are like this.
Lastly, as for death threats. I can say this goes both ways. While I have no received death threats, Ive had good (and even best) friends pick fights and berate me. I’ve been called silly things like “not a real man” to having people in my face. All of this and I have *never* attempted to convert, converse or inform anyone about my veganism. Majority of people find out only when they see me order in a restaurant. The rest is because one of those people told them.
People feel about their food as they do their religion and politics. I would never tell any of you what you should do, but this post is flawed and so are the replies. Veganism, like any human idea, has flaws. But it’s still a good idea and personal anecdotal evidence to the contrary do not say otherwise.
Speaking of anecdotal, my first two months of veganism saw my cholesterol drop 60 points and sugar drop 50. My *year* of paleo only resulted in 20 and 12, respectively.
“It’s about the undeniable truth that all life comes from death.”
That’s right, but being a vegetarian or a vegan has nothing to do with avoiding to cause death. If so, vegetarians and vegans would feel bad about eating plants too, since plants are living things.
The difference is that animals can suffer, which plants can’t, since animals are sensitive while plants are not. Actually, vegans avoid milk and eggs, which are NOT living things. They avoid them because the way we actually get them imply to hurt (to hurt and not to kill) cows and hens.